Posted By: Ferretman Posted On: May 9th 2003 04:33:53 PM Views: 166	Subject: So, What Else is AI? This topic is really curious for me since I'd always assumed, from my arcade game days on, that collison detection was in fact part of the game AI (that's how I voted). It just seemed to fit there better than anything else, since it was mostly my AIs that worried about running into things. When I brought this up at the GDC it was interesting to hear the reponses. A lot folks also felt that collision detection was part of the AI, but a fair number cited Line-of-Sight checks as well. So...this poll. Right now there are no "other" answers...surely something else is considered AI by somebody....? Ferretman
Posted By: Mike Ducker Posted On: May 12th 2003 06:22:47 AM Views: 157	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? I would potentially place under the banner of AI any functionality that is necessary to present the illusion of intelligence in a game. Obviously, much functionality that could be said to add to that illusion overlaps with other disciplines and deciding where to draw the line ends up defining the, often arbitrary, boundaries. For instance, collision detection prior to the actual occurrence of the collision (i.e. seeing that the collision is about to happen) then choosing a course of action could all be defined as AI. Detecting that a collision has just happened and resolving its effects could all be defined as physics. Of course you might want to write one system that could do both of those types of collision detection, but the functionality and area of implementation end up dictating the taxonomy of the system. So, based on that definition of AI, what else could be AI? IK systems can certainly be written and used in such a way as to be described as AI. You can write it in a physics fashion, dictating completely ahead of time how an arm will move from start to end point to achieve placement of the hand onto a cup or you could write it in an iterative way, making small adjustments during the entire process, much as we do when executing the same functionality in real life. I would say that one solution is more AI than the other although my original statement suggests that it is functionality and not method that matters. So AI is perhaps defined by both functionality and approach. There is core functionality in a game that is only ever defined as AI, there is core functionality in a game that is never defined as AI and there is a huge grey area that could be defined as AI depending on your perspective, functional use and approach to the problem. Glad to have not answered your question :-) Mike
Posted By: Ferretman Posted On: May 14th 2003 05:52:29 PM Views: 138	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? Heh...it's a hard question, really, and I was only able to put a few of the most offered answers on the poll. If I'd put down every possibility I'd never have gotten them all! Your definition isn't a bad one by any means. Some at the roundtables said the same kinds of things, that if it helped make the opponents look smart it was AI. Others took the more restricted approach I do mention on the poll; if it wasn't "thinking" it wasn't "AI". Ferretman
Posted By: Mike Ducker Posted On: May 22nd 2003 06:00:27 AM Views: 114	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? I'm definately in the school that believes that abstracting intelligence away from embodiement and situatedness is an abstraction too far. We are meaningless without our environment as is our intelligence. So to say that thinking is intelligent without including a complete sensorimotor loop into the equation is against what I believe. Sure some thoughts are abstract but they are grounded in the intelligence of enaction. I'd go as far to say that the study of passive dynamics is an artificial intelligence discipline (see movies here http://tam.cornell.edu/~ruina/hplab/pdw.html).
Posted By: InnocuousFox Posted On: May 23rd 2003 07:36:41 PM Views: 102	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? Collision detection is physics, not AI. You can have a game with no autonomous agents and still need collision detection. Same thing goes for LOS checks. Those are merely another form of physics... i.e. can a ray of light pass unobstructed through this corridor of space? The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what we call it except for such trivialities as whether it belongs in an AI book or not.
Posted By: Ferretman Posted On: May 23rd 2003 11:02:46 PM Views: 100	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? IFox raises some good points but I think I disagree in general. LOS at the very least can be "AI", since it's part of the decision making process--"Can I see that thing over there?" or "Will they be able to see me if I move here?". I've worked on games where Collision Detection was indeed part of the AI, and other games where it wasn't. I personally tend to lean towards the "it's physics" line there, though I can think of exceptions. Ferretman
Posted By: InnocuousFox Posted On: May 24th 2003 05:29:12 AM Views: 98	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? In your example, LOS is a tool used by the AI in the decision making process. By itself, it is not a decision making process... it is a determination of fact. It's very much like the health or ammo stats are not AI - however, an AI can reference these "facts" in order to help it make decisions.
Posted By: Mike Ducker Posted On: May 27th 2003 02:22:26 AM Views: 83	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? I would agree with IFox in general that LOS and CD are both non-AI functionality. However, you could certainly have an AI system that decided whether an upcoming object was likely to collide with you and when and then use that prediction to decide how to act. You could also have an AI system that searched for places where other people's LOSs would allow them to pass unnoticed and then use that prediction to decide how to act. So any system that gives you an answer as to how the current state is, is generally physics, any system that gives you an answer as to how the future state will be, _could_ be termed as AI. They both may, however, use the same systems to determine the answers. So who does the coding? Mike
Posted By: InnocuousFox Posted On: May 27th 2003 06:17:34 AM Views: 81	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? AI coders, obviously. We are the only ones that matter!
Posted By: Mike Ducker Posted On: May 27th 2003 06:23:23 AM Views: 79	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? 10/10 for observation ;-)
Posted By: Ferretman Posted On: May 27th 2003 09:56:51 PM Views: 73	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? In your example, LOS is a tool used by the AI in the decision making process. By itself, it is not a decision making process... it is a determination of fact. That seems like a bit of an arbitrary distinction though, isn't it? If I look around an area and figure out the shortest path the intelligence is implicit in the act--A* presumes you wish to find "the shortest path". All of the various add-ons and tweaks to it to find "the shortest safe path" or "the longest path with nobody seeing me" are just variations..there's an implicit intelligence in the act itself. Or at least that's what many told me at the roundtables....and why I put up the question! It's very much like the health or ammo stats are not AI - however, an AI can reference these "facts" in order to help it make decisions. A good point, a good point. Ferretman
Posted By: Ferretman Posted On: May 27th 2003 10:00:41 PM Views: 72	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? However, you could certainly have an AI system that decided whether an upcoming object was likely to collide with you and when and then use that prediction to decide how to act. Yes indeed...exactly! How does one separate the tools that one uses to make one's decision from the decision-making process itself? I further suspect that most players will judge the AI and what "is or is not AI" based on its behaviors. Looking around to find a safe path through a minefield, for example, is clearly something most people would call "AI"....even if it is just pathfinding... Ferretman
Posted By: TheMan Posted On: May 30th 2003 06:46:01 PM Views: 60	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? Well I orginally said no, but I have come to rethink my actions. I believe if scripting can be listed as AI (AI GP wisdom) collision detection should be as well.
Posted By: InnocuousFox Posted On: May 30th 2003 06:53:37 PM Views: 58	Subject: RE: So, What Else is AI? So a grid system is AI. So X,Y coordiates are AI. So vector math is AI. So delta checking is AI. Where do you draw the line?
Posted By: TheMan Posted On: May 30th 2003 07:42:06 PM Views: 56	Subject: RE: RE: So, What Else is AI? At story writing and game design. :p